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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
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Posted - 2006.12.19 12:02:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Nero Scuro on 19/12/2006 12:02:47
T2 was never going to be the 'common mans joy'. This was simply another way for those who wanted to get into T2 production to do so with out;
a) using the fubard lottery
or
b) buying a BPO for many billions
And remember, interfaces never run out, so however long it takes they will be more common eventually. It's just a matter of time. Plus it's hardly difficult for an alliance to get an interface - using your math of 8 people working 8 hours a day for a week you could say that 16 people would get it done in half the time. 32 people in half the time again. Should be easy for any half-organised alliance to throw the man-power at it, and once you have the interface it'll never leave!
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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 13:39:00 -
[2]
My point is that I don't think invention was intended as a shortcut to producing T2. It was just another way of getting into what is very much an 'end-game' area. T2 production should NEVER be easy, it would devalue T2 too much (with some notable exceptions that could use some devaluing, *cough* HACs and cloaks).
CCP saw it this way - people were whining because they wanted to produce T2 stuff. They had masses of RP building up but no way to use it except to hope to get lucky. Also if you wanted to start producing, just for example, Deimos' then you couldn't because no matter how much ISK you had nobody is selling the BPO. There are only a few T2 BPOs selling at any one time and people pretty much are forced to take what is on offer if they want in on T2 production.
CCP offer you an alternative. You can stick with the lottery, or with hoping that Deimos BPO turns up for sale and your pockets are deep enough, or you can put in a little (ok a lot) of hard work and nab yourself an interface. No dealing with a fickle lottery or an even more fickle WTS forum.
The interface is a neccessity because otherwise people would just start up research alts and rack in RP for datacores. The T2 market would crash.
I still think that invention was never intended as an easy means of getting into the T2 market, just another alternative.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:10:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: maarud
No, invention, Aka, reverse engineering was so everybody could get into invention, to quote oveur (I don't know how many times I going to quote this to ppl get the picture) "Perhaps its about time T2 became the norm".
Most people can use a T2 item of some kind in eve. The first T2 item I could use was a T2 cap recharger, I was so excited... till I saw the price tag of 25-30mil.
The demand for T2 is way more than the current holders of the BPO's can supply at, hence the prices.
Invetion was suppose to mean that the average man, could get into T2, a now common market (as in most people are buying it) and a increased production and effort factor.
The current effort factor so far for KIA is 3 weeks... and nothing to show for it.
So far invention sucks balls.
Why would they make T2 production something the average player could do? That'd totally devalue it. Skillpoints would suddenly become the be all and end all of PvP, because with the exception of faction gear everyone could always afford to use the best equipment all the time.
As it stands, putting in training time into using T2 stuff isn't enough. You have to have the guts to use something you could lose. Make T2 cheap and watch as everyone flys command ships everywhere and anyone who hasn't trained up to fly them - tough. You're just forced to wait as a newb until you can fly them. And that really would suck balls.
Originally by: Vasiliyan
I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management.
Nobody complained that outposts or Titans were too expensive when they were introduced. Why? Because it was obvious that they were going to be expensive, things that a whole alliance could benefit from, that would require a huge investment and provide permanent benefits.
People believed that Invention was going to be widely available to the individual researcher, and nobody stepped in to correct this. That's the root of the problem. As it is, it looks like in a few months you might be able to get a module data interface for about the cost of a large POS, which isn't totally unattainable but still far from the common pilot.
Note that, because there were no interfaces on the test server, Invention is untested...
This man gets a cookie.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
They want to keep BoB/MC hegemony. Have you ever saw bob dropping tech 1? afaik they only miss the cerb bpo. (I'm counting large guns, hac, command, etc)
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Nero, that's just bs. Pretty sure you own a tech 2 bpo.
Man, you really do talk a lot of crap don't you? So everyones got a greedy ulterior motive to every mentioning anything huh, apparently including CCP who screw up their own game balance (in your opinion, not mine) just so they can get some T2 stuff to play with? Nice world you live in.
And no, I don't own a T2 BPO, and no, BoB DO drop T1 stuff.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Yllse
Originally by: JimKong II
If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.
If they didn't want invention to be possible for the "average" person, then why, oh why, did they tout it as an alternative to the lottery for people who have invested time and isk in R&D agents?
As it stands now, it isn't difficult for the average person, it is impossible, still leaving any chance of making T2 items to the very rich and those with large groups backing them rather allowing any access to small time producers and researchers.
The 'average' person just means anyone not particularily invested in T2 production. Anyone can get an RP agent, it doesn't mean you've really put any time and effort into tryin to get into the T2 market.
Invention is an alternative to the poor but dedicated reseach specialists.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jita TradeAlt
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Why would they make T2 production something the average player could do?
Are you functionally retarded? This thread is not about how it's a bit hard and unpleasant to get into T2 production via invention, this is about how it's finanically completely unviable to do so at all. And no, even if the datainterfaces were easily produceable then T2 would still cost many times more than T1 most of the time simply because T2 is expensive and time consuming to make thanks to the materials needed.
To whoever said Nero has a T2 bpo then I can tell you, he does not. He also does not have any idea what he's talking about.
Ok, just so you know for future reference I don't generally make a habit of responding to posts that;
a) are posted by alts
b) substitute reasoned debate with personal attacks and insults
c) will probably get deleted by mods anyway
d) are just generally wrong
kthxbye
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:34:00 -
[7]
Originally by: maarud
To make it easier to understand.
I can
A). Spend a week ratting/mission running/whatever and buy a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.
B) At the current rate things are looking, spend 8-16 weeks inventin a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.
That is very stupid and makes it totally worthless.
I think that's exactly the point. T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates. It's high-end market stuff that should require a lot of effort and dedication, and should never be possible solo or without investing time into it.
Or am I to take it you want to spend a week of ratting/mission running/whatever in order to build a Vulture? Cause then as I already said, everyone would be flying them.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:38:00 -
[8]
Originally by: maarud
Just getting a R&D agent doesn't gurantee that you are going to get into the T2 BPO exclusive members club, you've got to sell your soul to the devil too and that isn't even sometimes enough, cause you have to content with 577452394759287598273459723493 other plays that sold their soul too.
Invention is suppose to be what the T2 lottery was suppose to be, getting into T2 by working for it.
Currently thats not possible.
Fair point, I guess our definition of what's a reasonable amount of work to get into T2 production is just different.
I wouldn't say it's 'not possible' though, just hard.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Cos as it stands you only have to have guts to fly expensive stuff if you not in BoB/MC, cos they be flying 30m hacs and caring less of loosing it. How's that for fairness.
Tech 2 is only expensive if you not producing it. They can fly all the tech 2 stuff they want at prodution prices. so STFU already.
And I'm saying that BoB/MC DO fly T1 things, and you haven't flown against them very often if you think they fly HACs like they're worth nothing.
Also, just because you tell me to STFU doesn't mean I'll actually do it, it just makes you seem like an angry, angry little person, m'kay?
Originally by: Jita TradeAlt
I WAS NOT LOOKING FOR YOUR RESPONSE YOUR OPINION OR ANYTHING ELSE, I WAS TELLING YOU THAT YOU WERE WRONG AND SHOULD GET OUT.
Ok ok, I said I wouldn't respond to you anymore but that was too funny! I should get out, eh? Get out of where? What does that even mean? We're on a forum!
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Nero
You are missing a very valid point.
producing Tech 2 via Invention, will be very very inefficient, meaning that it will still cost around 100 million for a Hac for example, in pure build costs. (we'll know more once we can test build lol)
The market bottom isnt going to "fall out" because of invention, but it will break the Tech 2 Owners hold over prices etc.
Ok, I was mostly arguing about the cost of getting an interface, not how efficient (or inefficient) actually building the stuff is once you have one (which I'm ignorant on atm).
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
I think I'm gonna get banned, but... OMFG can you be more clueless?
"T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates" cos that will be VERY DIFERENT from the TECH 2 OWNERS, ONLY THEY DESERVE THE RIGHT TO DO IT AS THEY "RANDOMLY" WON ALL THE BPOS. And have invested huge amounts of hard wotk into it. Can you just die?
They had just as much chance of of getting a BPO as anyone else, but yes the system is stupid. See my posts circa some 8 months ago on the topic.
And no I won't die, I enjoy living. I get to see funny things like you and Jita Tradealt having heart-attacks over things someone in a forum said. Hi-larious!
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Ok, I was mostly arguing about the cost of getting an interface, not how efficient (or inefficient) actually building the stuff is once you have one (which I'm ignorant on atm).
I dont htink you are only ignorant on that matter Nero.
I honestly feel you have little to NO idea how much effort is required to get this Interface.
i would say around 400-600 man hours ish.....
Are you telling me thats a fair price for the right to even try Invention?
I think you are sat not caring about invention, because its not something you wish to do, your attitude would be very different if you were charged with getting an INterface.
At the moment Inventing is only something the rich or the very large can do, for the average corp, its way beyond what they could realitically commit to any venture.
At the moment Tech 2 BPO owners have the win button, and Invention does not offer even a share of that win button to the people of Eve.... thats not what CCP touted at all.
Yes I am trying to get into invention, or I wouldn't be posting in a topic that was discussing it, would I (although I personally want to invent T2 rigs, not ships).
Look at it this way - anything that is possible for an alliance to do is hard for an average corp. Anything that is possible for an average corp to do is easy for an alliance. CCP chose the former, not wanting EVE to be flooded with alliance-made interfaces and then potentially crashing the T2 market. Which would be bad.
400-600 man hours is still only 8-12 hours when divided between 50 people, which is the size of most 'average' corps.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:02:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
My angry not directed at you, you doing your tech 2 lobby thing, can't blame you. If I owned a few bpo's I was prolly doing the same, maybe not.
You coulda fooled me with that anger bit.
Also, the only BPOs (or BPCs for that matter) that I own are all the T1 rig BPOs. That's it. I don't do ship or module production anymore.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jita TradeAlt
Originally by: Nero Scuro
I'm ignorant
Well thank god you admit defeat, discussion over.
Touche sir, touche.
*claps*
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: KIAEddZ
PLease read this, its gonna save a LOT of pointless argument.
IF INTERFACES WERE PURCHASABLE ON THE MARKET, IT STILL WOULDNT CRASH THE TECH 2 MARKET!
Datacore supplies (the consumable) would see to this, and of course the fact that the modules made from the BPCs created would cost 5+ times the amount of isk to produce. They are the balancer, they are a finite supply, and as such they would restrict naturally the inventing industry. Interfaces just stop people getting involved at all.
Please read this and swallow it before replying.
There are people out there who have been churning out RP with multiple accounts each with multiple RP agents for nearly 2 years now. If they thought they could turn that RP into T2 ships and modules with only a little effort (as would be the case without interfaces) they would, even if doing so at a reduced profit.
Even if it didn't crash the T2 market it would still make T2 production a no-brainer that everyone and his dog could do. Fly to Jita > buy components > get datacores > invent yourself up a BPC with little to no effort involved. What would be the point in specialising in T2 production if that were the case?
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kirjava
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Originally by: KIAEddZ
PLease read this, its gonna save a LOT of pointless argument.
IF INTERFACES WERE PURCHASABLE ON THE MARKET, IT STILL WOULDNT CRASH THE TECH 2 MARKET!
Datacore supplies (the consumable) would see to this, and of course the fact that the modules made from the BPCs created would cost 5+ times the amount of isk to produce. They are the balancer, they are a finite supply, and as such they would restrict naturally the inventing industry. Interfaces just stop people getting involved at all.
Please read this and swallow it before replying.
There are people out there who have been churning out RP with multiple accounts each with multiple RP agents for nearly 2 years now. If they thought they could turn that RP into T2 ships and modules with only a little effort (as would be the case without interfaces) they would, even if doing so at a reduced profit.
Even if it didn't crash the T2 market it would still make T2 production a no-brainer that everyone and his dog could do. Fly to Jita > buy components > get datacores > invent yourself up a BPC with little to no effort involved. What would be the point in specialising in T2 production if that were the case?
Sir, you said you did T1 production, and as such you will know that you can
1)buy minerals in jita (buy datacores)
2)build ship (invent bpc)
3)build bpc with T1 ship and bpc, having usin the morphite and extra materials u built earlier.
Construction is in reality a no brainer, thers just more of it in T2.
T1 is not end-game stuff. T2 is. Everything about T2 is more complicated, from needing moon miners to get advanced materials, to turning those advanced materials into construction components which are needed for the final T2 product. Why should invention be different? Although yes, it all is a no-brainer-just-more-of-it kind of situation I guess...
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: maarud
You can't just "get datacores", there is a limit on how much you can buy from a agent in 1 day. Add, to that 1 datacore costs 1500 RP from a agent and you need 16, equating to 24k RP to make 1 HAC BPC.
That 24k rp is more than a months worth. Now, thats alot of RP.
You were suppose to be able to get datacores from exploration too, but I think they are about as rare as the interfaces.
Yes, but datacores are still essentially 'free'. It might limit the amount you can build each month but they don't deduct anything from your eventual earnings.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:28:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Phyrr
scroll up to see what i said about BPO's
Invention will allow you to invent things that don't exist yet. check the BPO's on the market for yourself.
0.o
I'm fairly sure they don't. T2 battleships haven't been added to the database so there is nothing to invent (although it would be pretty cool if CCP had snuck T2 BS in and hadn't told us). Unless you get a faction BS BPC from it..?
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: KIAEddZ
But making 1 bpc or 2-4 hacs (i'm using hacs as they are potentially the most profiable, modules would produce less reward) a month....... for the investment of 400-600 hours.....
Cmon man, your still not making any sense.
That's a one-time cost of 400-600 man hours though. Once you have the interface it aint going anywhere, and you can produce HACs, even if only at a rate of 2-4 a month, forever.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Haha, been researching mechanical engineering for 2 years now and have enough rp's to buy 16 datacores, enough for 2 tries. Can get more isk out of a civ mining laser in an ibis in that time. Have you been playing the same game as I?
Then you must have the suckiest RP agent ever. I got my first RP agent on monday and have 700rp already. And I only have one. On average most people have 2 accounts, with a possible 4 agents on each one, each producing on average 100 rp (so that's 800 rp a day) if they only stick to level 3 agents and don't train their chosen field up past 3. That's enough for a datacore every 2 days.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: maarud
Well they do, cause time is money. Time doing nothing is money wasted. T2 BPO producers don't have this limitation, average joe does. So while T2 BPOs can produce as much as the BPO allows them to per hour, invention is bottle necked on the amount of RP you generate per day.
Lets try do a pro's vs con's or a just a look at the limitations on invention over a T2 BPO.
T2 BPO
Pros:
Unlimited production
Little, to no effort
Huge Profits
Cons
Needs luck to get into, but once you are in, there are no con's
Invention
Cons's
Takes an undertermined about of effort to get a interface
Limited production of BPC's due to limitation on datacores from agents
ME & PE penalties on BPC's, potentially doubling or trippling production costs
Subject to T2 BPO owners controlling the market (if the BPO owners drop the prices, you have to drop yours and you make less profit, they can supply more due to the fact that they aren't limited to poduction like you are).
Finding datacores via exploration could potentially take up all your time, leave little time for other gameplay (they seem to be about as rare as interfaces when trying to land them via exploration).
Pro's
You can say you produce T2
ZOMG! BPCs are less profitable than BPOs? What did you expect? That's exactly the same as T1 production, where the cost of the BPC is always going to cut into the profits of whatever you make (whereas the BPO won't after you pay for the inital investment).
I'm not saying that it couldn't do with a little tweaking, but it isn't as fubared as you're making out.
Originally by: maarud
People shouldn't NEED 2 accounts to play this game, more than 1 account shouldn NEVER be a prequisite to get into a niche of this game.
Very very true, and I only have 1 account myself, but that doesn't mean that when CCP balance the game they don't have to take into consideration how the majority of players play. And the majority have 2 accounts.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 15:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Oku Kee'lus
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Even if it didn't crash the T2 market it would still make T2 production a no-brainer that everyone and his dog could do. Fly to Jita > buy components > get datacores > invent yourself up a BPC with little to no effort involved. What would be the point in specialising in T2 production if that were the case?
Excuse me..
.. how is that different from Win Lottery > Buy resources > Produce T2?
There is only "effort" involved if you get the stuff needed for production yourself ( solo, corp, alliance ), in which case Invention requires far more "effort" than T2 BPO production.
If it doesn't crash the market, there is no problem, since Invention produced items have a much higher production cost, it can't crash anything for BPO owners, only keep margins within reason.
Yes, the T2 BPO lottery is messed up. Majorly. T2 lottery winners need their BPOs turned into BPCs.
And the BPCs don't require 'much higher production costs', they loose some ME over properly researched BPOs. If you mean the cost of getting the BPC in the first place then I could argue that doesn't cost anything but time. Time you'll have to spare waiting for RP points to come in anyway.
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